I am beyond thrilled to introduce you to Michael, his teachings and his own genius. Michael J. Gelb is the world’s leading authority on the application of genius thinking to personal and organizational development and the author of 14 books on creativity and innovation including the international best seller How to Think Like Leonardo Da Vinci. How to Think Like Leonardo has been translated into 25 languages and has appeared on theWashington Post, Amazon, and the New York Times best seller lists. We discuss the book and life and business and here are my main takeaways: -Why asking yourself the right questions will change your life and how Da Vinci principle of curiosity is something we all need -Why you should always carry a notebook with you -How to curate your own life according to your own liking and how doing that is connected to all success and happiness -Da Vinci principle of sfumato or ambiguity – how geniuses knew they couldn’t control most things and how we can apply that in our own life The importance of spending the time in nature fo developing a genius -The relationship of aha with ha ha. And so much more. I guarantee you that this podcast interview will make you think of your life, business and environment in a totally different way and could be the thing that changes everything.

Podcast Episode

Episode Transcript

Jasna Burza 0:00
Hello my beautiful people and welcome to upper level together podcast, pleased to uplevel in every aspect of your life, from personal development to mindset and spirituality, to business tips in relationship building, we bring you best interviews, tools, and inspiration where one episode can change your whole life. Here’s your host, Yasna Barza. Hello, my beautiful humans and welcome to uplevel to get a podcast, where we bring you the most exciting, cutting edge conversations that you will not find somewhere else. And I have really started to pivot the direction of this boss get podcast and give it full meaning the upper level together because when we empower one another in our communities around the world, and we all apply altogether, everyone in our world is better off. So one of the things that is I’m writing a book right now that I’m thinking a lot about is this concept of genius. Walter Russell says that genius is said self in bestowed and mediocrity is self inflicted, and some very powerful feed. Now when you think about it in a world where there’s so much mediocrity, and we’re constantly looking up to others. I am intending to really bring the conversation back to this idea. Could all of us be a genius? Well, it seems like quantum physics and Mystics are stating that yes, we all have that possibility. And we all have access to that field from which we can download information and create original thought and idea. So in this period of re airing some of the coolest conversations today I introduce you, dear friend, beautiful, brilliant human, Michael Gelb. And he is the author of the book, how to think like Leonardo da Vinci. And one of the most acclaimed books of our times. Michael Gallup. It really took the DaVinci is drawings and notebooks and so many legendary works of it in India introduced seven DaVinci in principle principles, which are the essential elements of genius, from Curiosity, the insatiably curious approach to life to appreciation and interconnectedness of all things. And it’s a step by step process through very incredible exercises that Michael walks us through, that is so accessible to every single one of us right here today and can be used for problem solving, creative thinking, self expression, and really enjoying the world around us in harmonizing body and mind because one of the things that DaVinci was really big fan of is interacting and communing with nature and Michael talks about his walks in nature and why they’re so important. So if you feel like there’s, you feel like you could do better if you feel like you just haven’t found the eighth thing, you may be missing the access to your own genius because you’ve forgotten that you’re as brilliant as any one of those people who have created the most majestic inventions. Michael Gelb talks about that and gives us a you know, framework for how to access that one or two days one of my favorite conversations and we laugh a lot Michael and I because he’s just that kind of a person. Make sure you follow him and read the book, I highly, highly, highly recommended. And as always, if you like this conversation, please give us a five star rating in all of the places where you listen to the podcast. Thank you so much. And here’s to your genius. Michael, I am so so so so so excited. So much for being here.

Michael Gelb 4:09
So great to be with you.

Jasna Burza 4:11
So I have met you in Boston for work hard play hard mastermind and you and your lovely wife made such an impact on me and she is just a whole different light. But you are especially have molded me in so many ways. And you came to talk to us about Leonardo da Vinci and the genius that here so what your bestseller how to think like Leonardo da Vinci is one of the most incredible books ever written. Tell us how did you get involved with research of Leonardo da Vinci?

Michael Gelb 4:45
Well, I was blessed to have a grandmother my grandma Rosa, who was Italian and a painter, and also a wonderful cook so I grew up with delicious homemade pasta and fabulous Italian food. And my grandmother told me about Leonardo da Vinci when I was a little boy. And he seemed like a superhero. I, as a boy, my other hero was Superman. But I remember I discovered with Superman was just a comic book character. But it turned out that Leonardo da Vinci was real. So he always represented for me, the fulfillment, and the highest expression of all of our human potential. So I found my way into an unusual career path. Where I was teaching people how to think creatively. I was I was a coach before there was coaching. Back in 1979, we put together this brochure about executive and life coaching that I was doing for executives and people who just wanted to develop their own business become entrepreneurs. And it was before this whole was a big thing. And I got invited by lots of groups around the world, to speak about creativity, about innovation, about leadership. And I would tell them stories about Leonardo da Vinci that I remembered from what my grandmother told me. And I had read his notebooks and learn more about him and been to Italy and seeing some of his works been to France, seeing some of his other works live. And people really resonated with the stories about Leonardo. And as time went on, I eventually had this great opportunity. I used to speak for this group, I still do around the world called YPO, Young Presidents Organization. And YPO had invited me to do one of their premier events in Washington, DC, to four or 500, company presidents. I was speaking about creativity and innovation. And the head of their big events that was upcoming in Florence, Italy, was present. And he came up to me after my talk, and he said, if we were to invite you to Florence, what would you do? He said, We want something really special. So I just looked at him. And I said, How about how to think like Leonardo da Vinci? And he said, Can you really do that? And I said, Sure. And what was great is I took this leap. And this is a very tough audience. I mean, they’re all company presidents, they pay a fortune to be at these events. And if they don’t like you, they just get up and walk out. And they score you two out of 10. And if you get below an eight, you never get invited back. And if you get above a nine, you get invited to these great events all over the world. But I wasn’t worried because Leonardo was his lifetime passion. And this was my chance to immerse myself more deeply in his consciousness. So I mean, I literally went to the place where he was born, I went to the place where he died, I walked his footsteps. I looked at the world from his point of view, I read the notebooks over and over again. I went to the museums where I could contemplate his works of art. And I started dreaming about him. And from those dreams, these seven principles emerged. And then I, I wrote a paper that summer about the seven principles, which I sent into the group in Florence. So they had a handout, they always want a handout. And the funny thing is, I also sent in my biography, so they could introduce me, and I’m not kidding, the person who introduced me confuse the two documents leading. I swear, the most amazing introduction I have ever received it went like this. Ladies, gentlemen, members and guests. You know, at the Young Presidents Organization, we’ve had many extraordinary resources, but never have I had the privilege and pleasure of introducing someone with a resume like this. anatomist, architect, botanist, a city planner, designer, engineer, painter, sculptor, ladies and gentlemen, Michael Gill.

Amazing, and he of course, in the talk really resonated with them. And I just thought I should really turn this into a book. So then I spent the next four years refining it in 1998. How to think like Leonardo da Vinci. Seven Steps to genius every day, made its debut It was number one on Amazon, in the whole world, not just in a category. This was not you know, in the days when you just got your friends to buy the book on that day. So you could say it’s the best? No, it was the real number one, in all the whole world. It was on the New York Times bestseller list and, and people have struck a chord that because I feel you know, Leonardo speaks to us. And what you’re my inspiration was to ask the question, a very simple, childlike question, which is, what’s his message for us to enrich our own lives? Because previous works about him always focused on his art or his science? What a genius, he was biographies. But I had this very simple question. But there’s lessons in here for us. How do we translate his example, into our lives every day? And we know you know, the classic thing you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with? Well, that’s just that’s true. Physically, but it’s also true virtually, especially in the world today. So if you’re spending your time with news, people, so called news

Jasna Burza 11:28
that will affect that will affect your mentality. Absolutely.

Michael Gelb 11:32
Yeah. Right. So I spend my time with geniuses, with spiritual teachers, with great athletes with wonderful people who are making a difference in the world with healers, with comedians, because I like to laugh with artists. Yes,

Jasna Burza 11:54
I have a board of directors somewhere here. Let me see if I can get it if I can find it. All that I have to show this year. You will, you will love this, Michael. So this is my my board of directors and you may recognize some of them.

Michael Gelb 12:09
Right? That’s fabulous.

Jasna Burza 12:11
Leonardo da Vinci is

Michael Gelb 12:13
on it. Excellent, excellent. That’s part of why that’s part of why you are so magnificent, which was obvious to me in this room of magnificent people were we were all together in Boston, you are shining like this very specially Radiant Star. I love you. Just true. You genuinely embody the first principle of Leonardo and all the other principles, but your curiosity, your genuine passion, to know, to learn, and to do so not just on the surface. But to go deep into what is the real heart of what is being shared. I felt that the energy coming from you, which is part of how we connected why we’re having this conversation today. I

Jasna Burza 13:00
absolutely love it. So let’s it thank you so much coming from you. I’m actually going to, you know, cut this out and listen to it. Oh. But let’s go there. So the lunar how to think like Leonardo da Vinci outlined the seven principles. And in the interest of time, we will encourage everyone to absolutely read the book, but we want to cover a few and the first one is curiosity. Yes, I love it so much. And I feel like if we want to be successful in life, and business and access that genius, it’s a must So describe and tell us what curiosity is.

Michael Gelb 13:37
Well, first of all, it all these principles come from the real study of Leonardo, and what he writes about in his notebooks, and his notebooks are filled with questions. He asks these childlike, open minded questions. He literally writes in his notebook. Why is the sky blue? Now, He then proceeds to answer the question, that question inspires him to figure out how that actually happens. So this is our birthright. Every child is born wildly curious, have incredible imagination. They seem to have unlimited energy. But what happens is they go to school and they learn that answers are more important than questions. They’re told not to use their imagination, but to think like everyone else. And then your energy starts to get weaker, as the years go by. So whatever age you are, you can experience this personal Renaissance. If you want more energy. You want to wake up your imagination. And if you want to wake up your imagination, there’s no better way to do it than to figure out the questions that will most inspire your life. See the questions we ask every day determine our person options, they determine the way we experience life. So if we ask the question, what’s bothering me today, we have a day where we’re focused on everything that’s bothering us. If we ask the question, What am I grateful for now, in this moment, we immediately change our immune system. And we not only that we it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because we change our perception. And we start looking for the things for which we’re grateful, instead of for the things that are bothering or annoying us today. So that’s just a simple example. But it applies across across the board. Most of the questions people ask, are based. So we know that the brain is organized on three levels. Reptilian Brain is our survival oriented brain. The mammalian brain, our limbic system is our social status, orientation, brain, and our neocortex, what people call the left and right hemisphere. That’s our brain for altruism, for genius for creativity, for self expression, for higher order thinking. Most of the questions that people are asking every day are driven, unconsciously and automatically by the reptilian brain. And we need that, you know, where’s the bathroom? What’s for lunch? Yeah, am I safe? You watch people get into an elevator, and they all take their their spot based on the spacing. This is not the limbic brain kicking in the so how do I fit socially and what’s my turf, then if you’re in an elevator with seven people, and five of them leave, and it’s just you and another person and you’re on this side of the elevator, immediately, one person walks to the other space, because you your your reptilian and mammalian brains tell you this is more appropriate spacing for our survival and our social interaction. Wow, everybody. Oh, with this, what’s happening most of people’s so called inner life is automatic pilot. And it’s fine if it’s working for a lot of it’s highly adaptive, and it’s really important. You sit down to lunch at a or dinner with a group of people, the first thing everyone does, they do it unconsciously, they define their territory, they move their glasses around, they move their silverware around, they set themselves up, they put their bag here, and they’re saying this just like, what’s the difference between that and a reptile on a rock? So here’s a question to ask is, how much of my behavior today is driven on a reptilian level? How much of my behavior is driven on a mammalian or limbic social level? So I’m checking out how do I fit in this group? What’s my status? And my accept accepted? How do I get along here? And all that’s fine. I’m not suggesting that you can’t get you can’t live life without these functions of the mind. But then what if you ask the question, How can I how can I bring 1% More of my energy and my imagination into the higher element of my brain? How can I be more creative today? What’s a way of what could I learn today that could?

That’s something that I really, really knew what’s something? What’s something? What’s some aspect of myself that if I asked the people closest to me, they’d most liked me to modulate.

Jasna Burza 18:57
So he really completely reframes our state of mind and how we learned that day.

Michael Gelb 19:01
Just by the question. Here’s, here’s one of my favorite questions. I think I asked the group that night, because I asked this to all my corporate groups, and it just rocks people’s worlds the simplest question, but it is, how can I make my life more beautiful today? And how can I make the lives of the people I interact with more beautiful today?

Jasna Burza 19:20
I love that. I love that and that sticks with me is really stay with me. I have a candle up here. Because candles make me feel beautiful. And I wanted to create an incredible experience for talking to you. How lovely Michelle? Yes. So asking the right questions, really completely refrains, and actually creates direct results in our lives.

Michael Gelb 19:42
immediate, immediate, immediate changes the quality of your life, because you can even feel it just from our conversation. You start to contemplate these questions. And it stimulates your imagination, and it raises your energy level. You’re engaged in life and you’re happy and you’re in the moment and you don’t have to go to a mindfulness seminar because you’re mindful. I love that.

Jasna Burza 20:05
We’re going to be, you know, one of the we have to write our goals for, before we go to Monaco, what is one thing that I really want to do in our lives? So we’re all of us. And one of the biggest one for me was I want to curate my life, which is exactly these were your words, and I want to refine that. So the question is always, how can I today curate my life in a way that honors me? And is of service to others?

Michael Gelb 20:33
Hallelujah, beautifully formulated. That No, you did it, you We did it together. That’s the point is, that’s our conversation that we began when we met. And you’ve, this is what I meant. That’s what I wasn’t just I’m not I wasn’t flattering, I really mean this. You, you, you engage in this passionately, curious, open way. And so you’ve taken this suggestion that I gave you and you’ve made it your own. And that’s what learning is all about. And then you share it with other people. And that’s, to me, that’s a big part of the purpose of my life is to bring, in this case, the genius of Leonardo so that he’s touching our lives, and re making them more beautiful and making the world a more beautiful place in 500 years after he walked walked the earth.

Jasna Burza 21:23
I love that. And to add one of the things that you said, Well, you’re talking about curiosity, I was always carry a notebook with you ask the question, because I always carry a notebook with you. I think that was in curiosity. Ah, yes, yes. All right. So suggestions for people today. Always carry is little black notebook and write your thoughts in or ask the right questions. So you, you you don’t forget it?

Michael Gelb 21:46
Yes. And let’s make it a little even more inviting, because you don’t know what the right questions are. So just ask a lot of questions. Right, seriously, but then you’re going to respond? What are the questions that in most inspire your imagination that most uplift your imagination, that and your energy that engage you most deeply? So there’s an exercise in the book where we guide people to go deep into the question process. And then when they get through it, then they step back. And then they look at the 10 most powerful questions that have emerged. And then they put those in an order which you can always change. And then they that that one exercise that one exercise in the kudos, chapter of the book came out 21 years ago, I still get notes from people, they did that it changed the whole way they look at life, people started whole new businesses, based on the insight they got just from doing that exercise.

Jasna Burza 22:52
I used it for two of my businesses, and I decided to withdraw from one completely with no exercise. So I’m telling you, and I am in love with this process. Michael, I love that one of the things that’s a real sticking point with the people that I work with people who follow me and ask me questions is the I don’t know what I don’t know, or I don’t know what’s going to happen. And Leonardo had something to say about that in the principle format of shooting. Again, I even wrote in a poem that we did I think I ended up with school motto. That’s right, the ambiguity. So would you please shed some light on how do we cope with ambiguity? And what did Leonardo have to say about us?

Michael Gelb 23:35
So first, let’s define the word sfumato. S FUMAT. Oh, it’s actually a term that was coined by art critics. It’s, it’s an Italian words for Moto it sounds like fumes in English. And the literal translation actually means going up in smoke. And what it refers to is the hazy mysterious quality you see in Leonardo da Vinci’s paintings. And that quality is something he did intentionally, because he knew that when you when you create this sense of mystery and depth, which you see, for example, in the Mona Lisa, and then she has this mysterious smile. And you’re wondering, what what is she smiling about? And is it a sneer? Or is it contentment is what is it? It’s mysterious? This is what great art does. It keeps us coming back. 500 years later, people are still discussing this. They’re traveling going out of their way to see it. So what it represents is maybe the most distinguishing characteristic of highly creative people, which is our ability to embrace the unknown, to embrace on certainty. And people, you know, people think, Oh, that’s a bad thing I need to know you. We have this crazy notion that you should always have certainty and be definitive. And that’s not creative. You’re never going to do anything new. If you Oh, if you’re always doing the same thing you always did you know, just what’s gonna happen? No, it’s new, it’s challenging. You don’t know how it’s gonna turn out?

Jasna Burza 25:25
Your need for certainty? Yeah, well,

Michael Gelb 25:26
sorry. Give it up. Let it go. And you know, Nope, it’s yours. And look, I love people. I’d like to tell you, there’s a guarantee of success. If you do everything by books. It’s not true. There is no guarantee of success. So give it up. We’d like your well, I’ll read the success principles. And I’ll do what all these high achievers say, yeah, when you get hit by a brick, tomorrow, that falls off a building, and you don’t get now you’ll. So what you can do what you can control. So here’s the good news, here’s the certainty. You can control your commitment to learning and optimizing from whatever life brings your way. And as you embrace that attitude, and if you have the kind of how can I make life more beautiful attitude? What can I learn from what’s happening today, then you do build this, a reliable. This, you know, this is where this is real self confidence, it’s knowing that I can do the stuff I can’t control if you if you think if you have the illusion, well all create my own reality and all create all this process, you know, you might not stuff happens is out of your egoic control, I guarantee it.

Jasna Burza 26:44
And the faster we release it, the

Michael Gelb 26:47
more we can be adaptive. This, this see this is in other words, if you’re reacting to reality, from your reptilian brain, the reptilian brain wants total certainty. This is my turf. Don’t even think about coming on. Right? The mammalian brain wants total certainty. Where do I fit on the pecking order? What is my status? Am I okay? And all that’s fine. It’s, it’s more fine when we have awareness of it. So we’re not completely run by our fear of uncertainty is driven by these survival anxieties. And they’re, you know, I have total compassion. Look, I experienced all this myself. I’m not speaking from some transcendent, higher place when No, I’m telling you this from my own reality. I’m a very strong, reptilian mammalian character. But but I’ve learned to cultivate this awareness. And this noticing of how, what are my automatic responses? When, when, when when does things occur? That aren’t the way I thought I wanted them to be? Or how can you and what’s going to happen tomorrow or next year or five months from now? I mean, I’m, I’m like you, I’m always launching new ventures. I have a new book coming out in the fall, I have a video series, we’re putting together, I’m offering all these things around the world, blah, blah, blah. How will they turn out? I don’t know. Yeah, I’m gonna do my best to fill every course to sell every book to do it. But you don’t control the result.

Jasna Burza 28:41
I love that. So one of the things that that I heard you say you said this, how will you leave your every day is how you live your life. So that without knowing the final outcome, that if you approach it with joy, and you see present here now, you will have already been living a life you want to live.

Michael Gelb 29:01
And it’s this is the other part of sfumato is it’s the ability, creative minds. Genius minds are much more comfortable with paradox and uncertainty than pedestrian. Standard Issue, habitual minds. So, so when I when I, for example, my new book, I just handed in the final edits of the final everything yesterday.

Jasna Burza 29:40
Oh my goodness, congrats.

Michael Gelb 29:42
Thank you. But and now I’ll tell you I did it. Every I made every deadline of the book, the initial submission, then you get the book edited, then you have to integrate the edits. Then you hand it back in by another date, then you get the copy edits, then you get to respond to that. by another day. So I’ve done there, I’m focused on the goal at every stage. That’s why I’ve achieved those goals. And believe me, I am focused on September 17, when the book comes out, I’m envisioning it. And I’m seeing it on bestseller list. And I’m speaking on all the podcasts and NPR radio shows of love. Okay, great.

Unknown Speaker 30:27
You got it.

Michael Gelb 30:28
And, and so all of that stuff that we learn in, you know, success 101 achievement 101 is all good to do. But you have to do it without attachment. Ah,

Jasna Burza 30:43
it’s a good one. When a child’s right, I think aparigraha non attachment, and they’re not kidding. Why is this so hard?

Michael Gelb 30:57
It’s not hard. But it was so great as see, when you get this. It’s so liberating. Because living your life with you go out all out passionate with passion. But you want the passion to be a passion of joy and the creative expression, rather than the driven passion of fear of failure. And like, if you’re having to prove yourself worth, by the results you get, you’re going to be unhappy, even if you get the result. Because no external achievement will fulfill you. It will just make you hungry for more claim, and more external signs of, I’m a good person, I have this car, I have this bank account I have. That stuff is great. Believe me, I’d rather have a nice car. I really liked to have a big bank account. I live in a nice house. But they’re their byproducts. They are an epi phenomenon of living one’s life in a passionate, joyous manner, which is in relationship to the question we discussed. It’s how do I express myself use my abilities, and talents in a way that is most joyous, most fun, and can make the greatest positive difference for humanity.

Jasna Burza 32:26
So how does one who is really struggling with this, I need to know and I have so many clients who are like, I need to know exactly what this is gonna look like. And you need to wrap it up in a ball. And I need to and there’s just this anxiety about it. How does one make love of its format? Or how does one really

Michael Gelb 32:43
great, I’ll get right to the essence of that. So I worked with this really wise therapist teacher guide for 20 years. Just went to his 100th birthday party last last May 28. And one of my things if you’re ever invited to a 100th birthday party always go because a few months later he passed away Oh, but he’s you know this guy is he’s on my board of geniuses these pictures right over here. And he said to me that the greatest courage that people ever demonstrate is facing their anxiety directly. I want to know more. Yeah, I’m gonna let that sink in before I tell you. Okay. Because can In other words, can we learn to be present with our anxiety? Because usually anxiety is unpleasant. And so it makes people want to do something to not have to feel it. And sometimes they do dysfunctional things they smoke or take drugs or drink or do some compulsive, obsessive addictive behavior, most of that kind of behavior is driven by not wanting to feel your anxiety. Now if it’s too hard to feel because it really you know, just It’s that new feeling and it’s your there’s, here’s how you know you wish it was and here’s how it is and the gap, you’re in the gap. And in the gap you’re suffering you’re just suffering suffering suffering. So then you try to do what you learn and self help books and you’ve tried to say an affirmation or whatever it which is all your way still of trying to not feel what what you really feel. So what if instead you just said why Don’t accept how I feel right now and just go into it and be present with it. Surrender and surrender to it. And let it be okay. It’s such a, it’s a funny transformational thing. You, we all have the power to let it be okay? That we don’t feel okay. You don’t have to feel perfect. You don’t have to feel wonderful. You don’t have to be zippity doo da all the time. And paradoxically, by not always trying to have to be good, you’re less likely to wind up being depressed. Because depression is when you just fail at being good. You fail at I tried so hard to be what everybody wanted me to be, or what I always thought I should be. And I wanted it to be this way. And it isn’t. And I’m a failure. So I have to try harder, I have to look better. I have to be nicer. I have. Let that’s all catered to me. But just now you’re noticing it, and who you are. isn’t all this story and drama. I mean, I’d rather you have a nice story. And a successful drama I’m working on I try to have the most fabulous story I can have. And if you hang out with me, you’re in my story, you’re going to be drinking better wine, you’re going to better food, you’re going to be laughing at more jokes, we’re going to be going to more beautiful places. So don’t get me wrong, I I’m engaged in creating the most beautiful story I can. But you know what? One of my best friends got ill. And I was incredibly lucky to be in the place where he lives in Santa Fe a couple of weeks ago, I got to see him. And four days later, he was dead. And you know, the guy who’s one of those powerful and smart people I know. And when I saw him, he looked 40 years older than the last time I saw him. He looked frail. And so you know, I that’s,

Jasna Burza 37:29
that’s sad. That is sad.

Michael Gelb 37:31
You know, there’s so yeah, I feel really sad. Now talking about I felt really sad, but also really sweet. Because I was present with the feeling. And I got to be with him. And when I left him, I looked him in the eye, not some big Oh, you know, over, you know, counter group way. But just I looked at him like I’m looking at you right now just see soul to soul. And I knew it would might be the last time I saw it. And it turns out that it was on this plane. So you know, there’s suffering and there’s death. And there’s decay. And these are part of the cycle of life. So if you always want it to be useful if you always want it to be happy, go lucky. Yeah, your anxiety is going to build through life. And it’s gonna get worse and worse. On the other hand, if you’re wallowing in misery and saying there’s so much suffering, and you know, well, we can’t enjoy this meal, because people are starving over there. They’re homeless. So, you know, I can’t, if you’re, you know, people either written by guilt, or they’re crazed with denial of suffering. But what if you’re, what if you’re present with the way things are, as you do that, which is in your power to make the most of everything?

Jasna Burza 39:03
Yes, to make it better or create change using those feelings that are transformative. Yeah.

Michael Gelb 39:09
And, and, and but still, you know, you can’t really make a profound change of yourself and anybody else does not take place without acceptance.

Jasna Burza 39:20
That’s full, full acceptance.

Michael Gelb 39:23
If I’m coaching you, if I’m helping you, if that’s my position, which you know, people, I have people, I coach them, they come to me and they want to change. Well, that’s great. That’s, you know, that’s kind of what they’re paying for. They don’t always like it when you tell them. The reality is, you have, we need to go to this place in ourselves first, where we fully accept where we are, because otherwise your attempt to change is compulsive. It’s neurotic. It’s driven by the and an acceptance isn’t wallowing. If we can learn this for ourselves first, just to accept things the way they are. And at the same time, then there’s a natural evolution to how they will change creatively, versus trying to superimpose our puny idea of how things are supposed to be. Do you think you know better than the universe? I don’t think so. So learn to tune into the you know, the the dowel. I know you mentioned to me you want we want to talk about what my favorite or most influential book is. There’s lots of them. But one of them is the Tao de Ching. The loud to Classic is that you’ve got that up there.

Jasna Burza 40:48
I have it right here. Right. Perfect. So it’s so true. You know, my tagline itself, I love you so much. Because I feel like I’ve been saying you’re exactly where you need to be. But you don’t have to stay there. The last five years, I was in a in a form of stagnation at home raising kids. And I’m like a racehorse being held back. But I have to accept that and say, I am here now. And I’m so glad I did. Because honestly, Michael, I made the most of it. And I think I gave my children mother who was present versus wanting to be elsewhere. So I can, I know that this will make so much impact on so many. We’re running out of time we’re talking. One of the things that I really want to talk to you about is we’re in a culture of entrepreneurship and hustle and creating, and everyone is so overwhelmed with these apps and technology and seminar masterminds. So part of me is I’m taking more and more time in my life, to do forest bathing. Yes, for your suggestion, Dr. Evil’s Hill hub, and going outside and take saying, These are my priorities, my family, my health, you know, meditation, and then everything else will fit into the rest of it. But people struggle with that they feel like they have to, they’re always running, you know, after the clock, I would love your thoughts on you know, whether a principle applies. That is it is it really true that if you take more time to just be that those ideas that we need will get downloaded, and we will do better because of

Michael Gelb 42:32
it? Well, with a dad, he says be really whole, and all things will come to you. So, so now, of course, that doesn’t mean you can just go off and do spiritual retreats all the time. And somehow somebody’s going to come and give you a million dollars or whatever you know, but have your day and your life organized around your inner truth and being and let life emerge from your soul from your core. As opposed to and if you’re not the curator of your life, in the world we live in today, you can guarantee you’ll be distracted away from who you are. And you may not even come back to it until you’re on your deathbed or somebody gets run over by a truck or you get some serious disease. That’s what happens to people. They say, Oh, you know, realize what was important? Well, don’t wait to get hit by a truck or get a stage four diagnosis and realize what’s important, because then you won’t need to get hit by a truck or get a stage four diagnosis. If you’re Wake Up Now. Right? And and so then how do you do that in this crazy world? We all need all the help we can get. So yeah, but we all know we all do. I mean, I do. Why have I learned all this stuff? How have I learned to teach all this stuff? I because I need it. I mean, I figured that out. I was high anxiety, kind of crazy driven achievement maniac person from the time I was 2020. So it’s a long time ago. But I said I’m going to take all that and focus it on how to how to experience wholeness and joy in myself and bring that out in others. And so that’s you know, that’s why I worked with my therapist for 20 years. That’s why I studying meditation, I started studying meditation when I was 19. Wow. So I’ve been meditating for that’s a really long time ago. I teach I teach Qigong and Tai Chi. Now, why did I learn to teach this, because to teach it, I really have to embody it. And I knew I could. My thing is always help others by helping myself by what something I’ve learned and incorporated. So I’ve learned, I’ve really studied like tai chi, and Qigong. I’ve studied with many of the greatest masters in the world, and I go really deep into them. And then I draw out what I think is the most useful, helpful thing. And then I integrate and create my own synthesis. And then I teach it to other people. And they say, Oh, my God, that’s just an incredibly efficient way. You taught me this practice, I do it every day, it takes eight minutes. And I feel to use another terminology, all my chakras come into alignment. Okay, so, so I’m focusing on what’s the most efficient, effective me methodology for aligning the self.

Jasna Burza 46:19
And we spend the time aligning the self and spending the time in the state of joy. So enjoying the wine by the time by the way, you got me drunk that night. I really don’t drink that much. But that port hadn’t

Michael Gelb 46:34
pushed you over the edge.

Jasna Burza 46:37
But it was it’s really spending your time in that alignment throughout the day that that’s when I have more access to getting stuff done. It was a hearing that correctly

Michael Gelb 46:47
Yeah, well, you’ll do. First of all, this is wisdom. So operate from wisdom. Because then when you get stuff done, you won’t be doing stuff that creates more problems.

Jasna Burza 47:00
Well, a lawyer, yes, you want to

Michael Gelb 47:03
do stuff that, that that solves problems and prevents future problems. So when I make you know, here’s my mind map of what I you know, my to do mind map of the day, I make one every day, over there as my mind map of my business and my main clients. There’s a, this is a mind map, I did this podcast, not a podcast, I made a video for somebody called genius. 101. Here’s my mind map of that.

Jasna Burza 47:34
We should just tell people that you have mind map, I have it by my nightstand. Oh, good eye. And it’s one of the things that I don’t know if you know, Brandon actually did a video on it, where his daughter he was teaching his daughter how to do right mind mapping. But that’s, that’s something that you teach and something that you can incorporate everything in your life. Yes. And

Michael Gelb 47:53
it’s and it’s also it’s in the DaVinci book, too. It’s in the RT Shan chapter, I put in step by step instructions. So people can learn how to do this. Because people ask me, What if there’s one technique, one methodology for generating and organizing your ideas for improving your ability to do thinking, planning and problem solving. It’s mind mapping, which was originated by my dear friend, Tony Zahn. And I worked with him since 1975. Wow, on on applying it to teach people how to think like Leonardo da Vinci. It’s, it’s the methodology I’ve used for writing all my books.

Jasna Burza 48:34
I love it. It’s brilliant. So Michael, does everyone have access to genius? Yes. That’s so good. My husband and I had this conversation because I was telling him that I was going to talk to and he said, I really believe some people are just born with it. And they’re born to with this mission or dharma. And I know he doesn’t believe that everyone has access to genius.

Michael Gelb 48:59
Well, he’s got a point, that it’s clear that some people have more talent than other people. And some people seem to have a natural passion and ambition. Mozart was downloading these great symphonies when he was five years old. I know a Nobel Prize winner in physics, and he was doing advanced complex mathematics when he was five years old. So it’s clear that some people have gifts way beyond what most people have, and a passion to explore that gift. So it doesn’t mean that anybody can become Mozart or anybody can become this Nobel Prize winning physicist, but anybody can become fully who they are. By incorporating the guidance of the geniuses. And when geniuses tell you, here’s how I did it. When Einstein says I didn’t have any special ability, I just was really focused. And I use my imagination in this way. And he says, and I kept a notebook. And Leonardo says, and I kept a notebook. And Thomas Edison says, When I kept a notebook, that’s why you heard me tell you keep a notebook. Got it. If just one genius told you, you might pay attention. But if they all say the same thing. And the other thing you mentioned, if they all say, spend time in nature, every day, I go for a walk in nature every just what I’m going to do after our conversation, we live right next to the woods, I walk for an hour, I shut off all my devices, I don’t talk and I walk and for the first 20 minutes, my mind is going blah, blah, blah, plans, you know, schemes, blah, blah, blah, after 20 minutes, it calms down. And then I’m just noticing the flow of the stream. And I’m listening to the birds. And I’m noticing the way the wind is moving through the trees. And now it’s just the beginning of spring. So I’m watching each day as I go out, the more manifestations of the blossoms and the colors, and the way life is emerging. And then, as I get to the last 20 minutes of my walk, a couple of things happen. I tend usually to feel this overwhelming feeling of gratitude. I feel happier. And a lot of times I some fabulous genius idea emerges. And then I go back and I start executing it.

Jasna Burza 51:48
I love that keep a notebook, darn it, just do it. And then go into nature and just disconnect because those are the steps really going back to the things that can help us access more of that genius or becoming who we are.

Michael Gelb 52:04
Yes, but let’s just reframe that. You’re going to disconnect from that which prevents you from really connecting. Yes, you’re going to nature to connect, right? So we call being connected that is not being connected. That’s a device with a purpose. No, I have my right look, we live in this world, you know, but what I use this for I carefully curate how I use it and I have to keep upgrading my my discipline of curation because it is addictive. It is it is it’s calling. It’s calling me now as I look at me colors, fights images. That’s yeah, yeah. Right. So let’s get it other ways.

Jasna Burza 52:50
Okay, no, that makes like fine wines that you enjoy or being in nature, I really get that. Okay, so is there anything else one more thing that you would recommend besides that to have access to a genius?

Michael Gelb 53:05
Yes, it is. Humor?

Jasna Burza 53:09
Oh, I love that. I am dying to stay for TED Talk.

Michael Gelb 53:18
It’s the it’s the relationship of the AHA, and the ha ha. It’s the snow. It’s the same part of your brain. When you get a joke. It’s the same part of your brain that lights up when you solve a problem. Because what they call it, the theory of humor is called incongruity theory. That what makes us laugh is you’re expecting a certain outcome. Okay, so why did the chicken go to a seance? I don’t know. To get to the other side. See, that’s funny, right? It’s funny. Because the classic joke is that your mind if I said, Why did the chicken cross the road? They the oldest joke in the world is to get to the other side, right? But then we say why did it go to a seance? And it’s a different kind of other side. We don’t expect it. And therefore we go, ha ha ha, I write what’s a creative idea. You’re thinking, oh, I need to write this this way. And then you go for your walk in nature. And you realize, oh, I could do in a whole other unexpected way. It’d be so much more engaging, say, aha. But now you know, so that that doesn’t escape you. You write it down in your notebook, okay.

Jasna Burza 54:38
It’s kind of I have, I always I did not keep a notebook next to my nightstand. Now I do because of you because I do have especially I wake up in between one and 3am and I have the most original ideas and in the morning, they’re gone. They’re gone.

Michael Gelb 54:56
No, you’re gonna write it down. You gotta write it down on the spot about Let’s just also say to because I know not everybody has the freedom of time and the luxury to walk in the woods for an hour. And they’re not lucky enough like, so what if you don’t live next to the woods, what if you have three kids, and a job and a husband and a parent who has Alzheimer’s, and other responsibilities. You can take one minute, every hour, pause from whatever you’re doing. Align your spine, sit or stand, and bring your full attention to your breathing. And feel the feeling of gratitude. And just be present with yourself. Even if you know you’re busy and you’re Christ. Let that be accepted. That’s the way it is. Give yourself one minute of self acceptance and full presence every hour, and utterly transform your life you’ll be way more resourceful in dealing with those kids that job, that parent and everything else,

Jasna Burza 56:02
what are things

Michael Gelb 56:03
that aren’t where you are right start where you are, you may not be able to walk in the woods, you may not be able to drink fine, what, whatever other thing, I’d like you to be able to do that. But this is accessible to you without having to go somewhere or have something or do so this is your being as available to all of us always, always.

Jasna Burza 56:23
And so that you mentioned that because that’s one of the biggest comeback. So this is so valuable. So Michael, in the interest of time, and I know the forest bathing is waiting for you. Really quickly. I don’t want to deprive you of that. Really quickly when asked some quick questions first thought that that shows up best book.

Michael Gelb 56:44
Well, we said the doubt a champion by this one now that that’s

Jasna Burza 56:48
yeah, that’s the one Life is

Michael Gelb 56:52
a mystery. A delight.

Jasna Burza 56:56
Okay, my current struggle is

Michael Gelb 57:00
is to give up struggling.

Jasna Burza 57:10
Having faith means

Michael Gelb 57:13
I don’t believe in faith.

Jasna Burza 57:15
You don’t believe in faith? No,

Michael Gelb 57:16
I don’t tell me but now that I have to hear the answer. Okay. I believe in experience. Ah, I think I don’t, I don’t believe in beliefs. Okay. I don’t have beliefs. I look for evidence in experience. And this is one of the things I love to do when I work in seminars is give people I guide people to have an experience of their genius and experience of their creative power and experience of their presence and experience of their inner freedom, then you don’t have to believe it.

Jasna Burza 57:55
Good enough. Good enough, I’m gonna have to listen to this multiple times. You know that right? Last one best advice I was ever given.

Michael Gelb 58:06
Well, besides the advice I already shared with you from Mort who said, you feel your anxiety, that’s the greatest, the greatest courage. Another, maybe the single greatest piece of advice I ever got was from my mother, who is a psychologist and brilliant. And when I was really young, she said, always use your anxiety creatively. Oh, so if you combine your the advice I got from Mort be present with it and have the courage to face it. And what my mother said is if you can’t face it, use it creatively. So both reframes. So together, I would take those two pieces of advice those become does it become my 16 books and other things that I’ve manifested because I’ve used it creatively, while also learning to be present with it.

Jasna Burza 58:56
I love that Sasha Joy truly such as your you have made such an impact on me. And I really believe that, that you’re going to make an impact on so many people who are listening to this kind of we’re creating a ripple effect and they will implement some of those things. Now, what we’re going to do is we’re going to give away three books on how to think like Leonardo da Vinci so when this goes live, if you’re listening to this, please grab a screenshot tag Michael at Michael Gallup on Instagram and myself and we will mail you three copies of the how to think like the VINCI Now Michael, you speak on some of the biggest stages on with the largest corporation so you do workshops and seminars and you have a new book coming out. How can we support you? Where can we find you tell us what do you need from us because we are legion of

Michael Gelb 59:56
the greatest thing first of all people can do little believe that nothing gives me more fulfillment and pleasure than when people do what you’re doing and start to keep a notebook next to their bed and start to remember to pause and breathe and shift out of their automatic reptilian mammalian modality. So the greatest way that people can circulate the energy is by applying it. And now having said that, we need to know what it is you’re applying so yes. How to think like Leonardo Vinci has sold 700,000 copies. It’s in 25 languages. And yes, I have a goal. It’s a million copies sold. That means we need 300,000 More before the end of the year. It’s Leonardo’s. It’s the 500th anniversary of his life. So yes, please buy the book, buy it for your friends. Give it as a gift to anybody you love who might ever want to be more creative. That would be the number one thing that’s our restaurant focus right now is get the Da Vinci message out in this year of his 5/500 celebration of his 500 years since he’s been here.

Jasna Burza 1:01:08
I’m going to up the ante the person who purchases the most books and gives them away gets a free coaching session with me.

Michael Gelb 1:01:15
Awesome. Wow, you’re so cool. And and people can attach your other question. Obviously, it’s Michael gallup.com G lb Michael gmail.com. We have a free newsletter. We have lots of videos and podcasts and articles I’ve written that are all free on the site so people can go to Michael gallup.com as well.

Jasna Burza 1:01:38
Okay, well, your joy and delight we I cannot thank you enough. I really believe that there are going to be people who whose lives will change after listening to this. There’s all there’s at least one nugget that will completely transform their life. And I think that that’s everything. Thank you for your work. Thank you. Bye, Michael.

Michael Gelb 1:01:59
Ciao.

Jasna Burza 1:02:00
Thank you so much for tuning in. It means the world. Please share with anyone that might find this useful. And go ahead to all iTunes stations and please give us a five star rating. So much love for you all please, please, please know that everything can be different. You’re wordy, you’re good enough, unless above all together.